I loved reading this post and the comment thread. It's such a complex subject and no easy answers. My perspective on these behaviours has changed a lot since adopting my children and seeing the devastation caused by counter-productive behaviours people use to protect themselves. I see it less as a "disability" and more as an inability but perhaps that's splitting hairs.
Something I've also learned about these behaviours is that these people who exhibit them usually carry such a profound sense of their own worthlessness / unloveability that it's hard for them to connect in meaningful ways.
We often judge these behaviours as though the person is making a conscious choice but this is usually not the case. The mistake we make is that we attempt to appeal to them through words and logic, offering feedback about what they're doing 'wrong'. As the underlying drivers for these behaviours often lie out of logical reach, conversation and feedback may simply reiterate what they already 'know' about themselves - that they are "bad" - and since that's what started the behaviour, we can perpetuate the cycle rather than break it.
The only way I've ever found for turning the tide is by connecting the person with their own sense of worth - not for what they do or what they have but who they are. This part isn't about US accepting them, it's about them accepting themselves. Only they can turn the key. All we can do is make them aware that the key exists in the first place.
Always tough and although I'm able to do this work very effectively with clients, it's still something I find more challenging outside a professional setting. The whole thing is further complicated in cases where society rewards such behaviours with "success", thereby increasing the person's desire to stay as they are.
Thank you, Negra, for a great piece and a wonderfully thought-provoking comments thread!
It’s so interesting that you said their lack of awareness functions like a disability because this is what I realized about some narcissistic people in my life that they simply can’t be any different. It’s like asking a leopard to change its spots. This helped me take their behavior less personally and to stop expecting/hoping they would be different.
All very good points. I'd ask, what happens when setting boundaries creates more chaos and conflict, as boundaries can often be seen as obstacles, challenges to be overcome by the other?
Lindsay C. Gibson’s work has helped me a lot - specifically with regards to emotionally immature family members. In my less reactive moments, I’m able to think of certain people as being teens in an emotional sense (and I’m able to remember that trauma no doubt played a massive part in where they are with it all, now way beyond teen years). This breaks my heart. But I love them, have chosen to keep them in my life despite the harm they cause, and prefer heartbreak to anger when possible.
You ever read something and you can see the exact person the text is describing? This is exactly what it felt like. Biggest takeaway is to treat them as if they have a disability. This really disempowers them in my mind. Thank you.
Excellent insight. I have had relationships with people like this, who then try to turn the blame onto anyone else but themselves as if their behavior wasn’t the thing that solicited a boundary to be placed or them to be called out. In turn, their “protection” was to cut me/others off in order to not be held accountable for their actions. I so needed to read this perspective.
It’s difficult to navigate when these people are a part of your close circle, especially family. I have noticed that I continue to show up and ‘ignore’ the negativity and the lack of accountability as suggested by others, but I end up draining myself in the process. I can’t keep showing up, only to be told that I don’t care. It’s hard to figure out how to be cordial but also set boundaries at the same time.
Yassss!!!! Thank you for this -perfect timing AGAIN!! Im going through this exactly -now. My ex-bff asked to be friends again after a traumatic experience she incorporated me into that caused me pain of heart, loss of relationships, and more. I told her that it would take a lot to get me to give her a 2nd chance. Gratefully I'm glad I asked particular questions to test her "changes "she claimed making. She loves the chaos she's in and I can no longer accept nor tolerate being emotionally abused as a result of her child/adult hood abuse issues. She likes incessantly reliving her traumas. I can't accept nor tolerate her overstepping &disrespecting my boundaries, or who she is as a whole. The example of showing up unannounced she literally did that 3mons ago!!! I'm in a healthy space. she refuses to change. She has hit beyond rock bottom to try to get happiness at all and any costs including sacrificing her physical life . I've learned she mirrored my childhood issues of emotional unavailability and crumbs of lack of connective engagement. And I'm thankful I saw the red 🎌 after almost 1.5yrs of no friendship &after 20yrs of friendship. I'm worth more and deserve better even though my heartaches from grief of loss. Thanks Nedra. You literally just helped me heal a wound I'm going through .
Narcissistic Sociopath no regard for boundaries predatory behavior disables others emotionally & physically.
This was such a short and sweet read but also so thought-provoking! Thanks for sharing ✨
I loved reading this post and the comment thread. It's such a complex subject and no easy answers. My perspective on these behaviours has changed a lot since adopting my children and seeing the devastation caused by counter-productive behaviours people use to protect themselves. I see it less as a "disability" and more as an inability but perhaps that's splitting hairs.
Something I've also learned about these behaviours is that these people who exhibit them usually carry such a profound sense of their own worthlessness / unloveability that it's hard for them to connect in meaningful ways.
We often judge these behaviours as though the person is making a conscious choice but this is usually not the case. The mistake we make is that we attempt to appeal to them through words and logic, offering feedback about what they're doing 'wrong'. As the underlying drivers for these behaviours often lie out of logical reach, conversation and feedback may simply reiterate what they already 'know' about themselves - that they are "bad" - and since that's what started the behaviour, we can perpetuate the cycle rather than break it.
The only way I've ever found for turning the tide is by connecting the person with their own sense of worth - not for what they do or what they have but who they are. This part isn't about US accepting them, it's about them accepting themselves. Only they can turn the key. All we can do is make them aware that the key exists in the first place.
Always tough and although I'm able to do this work very effectively with clients, it's still something I find more challenging outside a professional setting. The whole thing is further complicated in cases where society rewards such behaviours with "success", thereby increasing the person's desire to stay as they are.
Thank you, Negra, for a great piece and a wonderfully thought-provoking comments thread!
https://open.substack.com/pub/artofsaience/p/harry-potter-and-the-chamber-of-embeddings?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=39cqpa
This is so my mom!!
It's only gotten worse because she's been diagnosed with dementia.
It’s so interesting that you said their lack of awareness functions like a disability because this is what I realized about some narcissistic people in my life that they simply can’t be any different. It’s like asking a leopard to change its spots. This helped me take their behavior less personally and to stop expecting/hoping they would be different.
All very good points. I'd ask, what happens when setting boundaries creates more chaos and conflict, as boundaries can often be seen as obstacles, challenges to be overcome by the other?
Well-said and well-written
Amazing 👏🏻 thank you for this.
Lindsay C. Gibson’s work has helped me a lot - specifically with regards to emotionally immature family members. In my less reactive moments, I’m able to think of certain people as being teens in an emotional sense (and I’m able to remember that trauma no doubt played a massive part in where they are with it all, now way beyond teen years). This breaks my heart. But I love them, have chosen to keep them in my life despite the harm they cause, and prefer heartbreak to anger when possible.
You ever read something and you can see the exact person the text is describing? This is exactly what it felt like. Biggest takeaway is to treat them as if they have a disability. This really disempowers them in my mind. Thank you.
Excellent insight. I have had relationships with people like this, who then try to turn the blame onto anyone else but themselves as if their behavior wasn’t the thing that solicited a boundary to be placed or them to be called out. In turn, their “protection” was to cut me/others off in order to not be held accountable for their actions. I so needed to read this perspective.
Thank you so my for sharing this!! Definitely needed and definitely ON TIME!! 🫂🤍🤍
It’s difficult to navigate when these people are a part of your close circle, especially family. I have noticed that I continue to show up and ‘ignore’ the negativity and the lack of accountability as suggested by others, but I end up draining myself in the process. I can’t keep showing up, only to be told that I don’t care. It’s hard to figure out how to be cordial but also set boundaries at the same time.
Nedra, would love to know the podcast you are referring to. Thanks!
Yassss!!!! Thank you for this -perfect timing AGAIN!! Im going through this exactly -now. My ex-bff asked to be friends again after a traumatic experience she incorporated me into that caused me pain of heart, loss of relationships, and more. I told her that it would take a lot to get me to give her a 2nd chance. Gratefully I'm glad I asked particular questions to test her "changes "she claimed making. She loves the chaos she's in and I can no longer accept nor tolerate being emotionally abused as a result of her child/adult hood abuse issues. She likes incessantly reliving her traumas. I can't accept nor tolerate her overstepping &disrespecting my boundaries, or who she is as a whole. The example of showing up unannounced she literally did that 3mons ago!!! I'm in a healthy space. she refuses to change. She has hit beyond rock bottom to try to get happiness at all and any costs including sacrificing her physical life . I've learned she mirrored my childhood issues of emotional unavailability and crumbs of lack of connective engagement. And I'm thankful I saw the red 🎌 after almost 1.5yrs of no friendship &after 20yrs of friendship. I'm worth more and deserve better even though my heartaches from grief of loss. Thanks Nedra. You literally just helped me heal a wound I'm going through .